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Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:43 πόσο πιθανό είναι η λέξη "μασαμπούκα" να προέρχεται από αυτόν;

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:50

Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:43 πόσο πιθανό είναι η λέξη "μασαμπούκα" να προέρχεται από αυτόν;

να τοποθετηθούν να μέλη της πχορουμικης μασαμπουκας. Μήπως υπάρχει κάτι που μας έκρυβαν τόσο καιρό;

Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:56

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:50

Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:43 πόσο πιθανό είναι η λέξη "μασαμπούκα" να προέρχεται από αυτόν;

να τοποθετηθούν να μέλη της πχορουμικης μασαμπουκας. Μήπως υπάρχει κάτι που μας έκρυβαν τόσο καιρό;

αναρωτιέμαι αν είναι (αντι)δάνειο από τα γαλλικά, όπως ασανσέρ, ντουζ, κλπ, και πως βρήκε τον δρόμο της στην ελληνική να σημαίνει "ντερλίκωμα"

Arnaud de Verniolle (also known as Vernhole) may be one of the earliest examples in Western history of a man who, under interrogation, acknowledged himself as a practicing lover of males, and to have tried to articulate his sexuality during his trial. He was a fourteenth-century cleric from the southern French Sabarthès village of Montaillou, mentioned in the Inquisition records of Jacques Fournier, bishop of Pamiers, who was sent to ferret out the last remnants of Albigense heretical sympathy in the region. The records were subsequently mined by historian Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie to uncover the texture of daily life and its interface with class and faith in this strongly male-centered yet morally unorthodox culture. Le Roy Ladurie's identification of Arnaud as an individual "condemned" to be a homosexual and ridden with remorse (1979, p. 145) elicited criticism from various quarters of the scholarly world; some found this comment frankly homophobic (Camille 2001), while others, from a strict constructionist perspective, objected to the term homosexual being applied to Arnaud's time.

According to the trial proceedings, Arnaud, who had relations with women as well as men, was primarily attracted to young men and adolescents in the clerical milieu and entertained troubled physical relations with them, combining consent and violence, attraction and bribery, curiosity and revulsion. He refused to concede that he was any more sinful than those engaged in normative sex. While he did admit to having sinned, and at once denounced sodomy and denied practicing it, he made no bones about his attraction to men. He denounced his interrogatory as an unjust double standard that made short shrift of the sexual violence routinely exercised against young women and girls, and he maintained that his same-sex experiences were consensual (Duvernoy 1965).

It is surprising that these documents have drawn such intense criticism from strict constructionist historians. No doubt, all modern words designating same-sex activity in Arnaud's time are anachronisms and thus questionable. But it would be no more accurate to refer to him as a "sodomite" than a "homosexual" because he himself refused the term, or at least the association between the term—the only one available at the time—and the acts it purported to designate.

The general reliability of Inquisition records has also been questioned, because they are obtained under duress. Further, the linguistic gaps that occur when the original Latin is translated into Occitan to interrogate local witnesses and then transcribed back into Latin make these records even less trustworthy (Davis 1979).

In Arnaud's case, however, Latin would not have been a barrier to communicating with the inquisitors. And rather than merely dismissing the records and Arnaud's testimony, if one engages in a close reading of the confession, one has to suspect that extracting it in this form would do little to enhance Church dogma and teachings by eliciting, and recording, such a confrontational confession. In effect, concern with the appropriateness of the "homosexual" label is a modern one: Arnaud was not tried principally for his alleged sodomitical acts, but for exercising without license the spiritual functions of the priesthood, in particular, confession and absolution. Sodomy was thrown in as an aggravating circumstance, and in spite of his recorded defiance, he was not condemned to death, but to life incarceration. Examined with all the necessary prudence, this remains a remarkable case in which the combination of the charges, their weight in the proceedings, and the inscription of sodomy into the interrogation and onto the body of the accused render a complex account of the construction, representation, and punishment of sexualities in fourteenth-century France (Sautman 2001).

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sci ... th-century

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 22:07

Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:56

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:50

να τοποθετηθούν να μέλη της πχορουμικης μασαμπουκας. Μήπως υπάρχει κάτι που μας έκρυβαν τόσο καιρό;

αναρωτιέμαι αν είναι (αντι)δάνειο από τα γαλλικά, όπως ασανσέρ, ντουζ, κλπ, και πως βρήκε τον δρόμο της στην ελληνική να σημαίνει "ντερλίκωμα"

Δε νομίζω. Μάλλον και στις δυο περιπτώσεις προέρχεται απο τα ιταλικά. Δεν ξέρω κιόλας, να μας πει ο Νταρνάκας

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:43

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 22:07

Λεγεών έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 21:56

αναρωτιέμαι αν είναι (αντι)δάνειο από τα γαλλικά, όπως ασανσέρ, ντουζ, κλπ, και πως βρήκε τον δρόμο της στην ελληνική να σημαίνει "ντερλίκωμα"

Δε νομίζω. Μάλλον και στις δυο περιπτώσεις προέρχεται απο τα ιταλικά. Δεν ξέρω κιόλας, να μας πει ο Νταρνάκας

Για νεολογισμός μου μοιάζει, δε νομίζω να υπήρχε η λέξη αυτή πριν από 20-30 χρόνια (και ίσως να είναι και πολύ πιο πρόσφατη). Το πρώτο συνθετικό, "μάσα", είναι ελληνικό ενώ το "μπούκα" λατινικό.

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:45

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:43

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 22:07

Δε νομίζω. Μάλλον και στις δυο περιπτώσεις προέρχεται απο τα ιταλικά. Δεν ξέρω κιόλας, να μας πει ο Νταρνάκας

Για νεολογισμός μου μοιάζει, δε νομίζω να υπήρχε η λέξη αυτή πριν από 20-30 χρόνια (και ίσως να είναι και πολύ πιο πρόσφατη). Το πρώτο συνθετικό, "μάσα", είναι ελληνικό ενώ το "μπούκα" λατινικό.

και το όνομα του σχολάρχη απο το 1320 τι ετυμολογία να έχει

ίδια λέξη μου φαίνεται

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:53

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:45

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:43
Για νεολογισμός μου μοιάζει, δε νομίζω να υπήρχε η λέξη αυτή πριν από 20-30 χρόνια (και ίσως να είναι και πολύ πιο πρόσφατη). Το πρώτο συνθετικό, "μάσα", είναι ελληνικό ενώ το "μπούκα" λατινικό.

και το όνομα του σχολάρχη απο το 1320 τι ετυμολογία να έχει

ίδια λέξη μου φαίνεται

Τρέχα γύρευε. Πιθανόν να μην προέρχεται από την στάνταρ γαλλική (όσο μπορούμε να μιλάμε για "στάνταρ γαλλική" την εποχή εκείνη) αλλά από την οκκιτανική γλώσσα.

Σενέκας έγραψε: 15 Ιούλ 2020, 00:05

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:53

Σενέκας έγραψε: 14 Ιούλ 2020, 23:45

και το όνομα του σχολάρχη απο το 1320 τι ετυμολογία να έχει

ίδια λέξη μου φαίνεται

Τρέχα γύρευε. Πιθανόν να μην προέρχεται από την στάνταρ γαλλική (όσο μπορούμε να μιλάμε για "στάνταρ γαλλική" την εποχή εκείνη) αλλά από την οκκιτανική γλώσσα.

Σωστά. Ούτε εμένα μου έκανε για Γαλλικό, γι'αυτό νόμιζα ότι ιταλοφέρνει αλλά δεν είχα σκεφτεί ότι μπορεί να είναι τοπική διάλεκτος.

το μικρό του πάντως, "Pons", δεν έχει τοπική προέλευση. Βλέπω ότι είναι γαλλική εκδοχή του Pontius( )

One, however, came directly from the people, though he was not a
peasant. He was a shoemaker's apprentice aged eighteen and came from
Mirepoix. He was doing his apprenticeship with Bernard de Toulouse, a
shoemaker in Pamiers. He claimed to know some pretty women (iiiAs),
and did not carry his homosexual experiment with Arnaud very far. It
took place on a dungheap (there was one in nearly every courtyard in
Pamiers, as in Montaillou).

Νταρνάκας έγραψε: 15 Ιούλ 2020, 01:28 Πάνω στις κοπριές πηδιόντουσαν οι βρμπστς;

Αter these two traumatic experiences Arnaud turned away from women. He was an active, though not yet notorious, pederast, and experienced considerable success. His conquests included adolescents of between sixteen and eighteen ; for example (iii.49), Guillaume Ros, son of Pierre Ros of Ribouisse in what is now the department of Aude, and Guillaume Bernard of Gaudies in the present department of Ariege. Both Guillaume Ros and Guillaume Bernard came from the country but were living in the city. Sometimes Arnaud would unceremoniously 'lay' his young men on a dungheap. On other occasions, more elaborate, he would take them to a little cabin in the country, among the vineyards. According to Guillaume Ros (iii. 1 9) : Arnaud threatened me with a knife, twisted my arm, dragged me by force despite my struggles, threw me doTIJn, and made love to me, kissing me and ejecting his sperm between my legs. But Arnaud himself denied that there had been any violence on this occasion.

He said (iii.43): Both parties were consenting. Arnaud naturally performed his acts of sodomy in various positions : as if with a woman, or from behind, and so on (iii.3 1). Sometimes, before proceeding to the main point, the lovers would dress in tunics and wrestle and dance. Sometimes they undressed altogether. Afterwards Arnaud and his friend of the moment would swear on the four Gospels, or on a calendar (iii.4o ), or on the refectory Bible of a monastery, never to reveal to anybody what had passed between them. Arnaud used to give his young men little presents - a knife, for example. All this served to fill his leisure time, especially in the holidays. Among the young men concerned, and the monks and mendicant friars who made up Arnaud's social circle, these activities were accompanied by marked masturbatory tendencies (iii.43 and passim). According to him, Arnaud did not realize how criminal the act of sodomy was in the eyes of the Church of Rome (iii.42, 49). I told Guillaume Ros, in perfectly good faith, that the sin of sodomy and those of fornication and deliberate masturbation were, in point ofgravity,just the same. I even thought, in the simplicity of my heart, that sodomy and ordinary fornication were indeed mortal sins, but much less serious than the deflowering of virgins, adultery or incest. The social groups among whom sodomy was practised, according to the Pamiers record, made up a fairly distinguished circle which though urban had some connections with the country. One individual lived entirely in the country.